TV7’s Kingmaker debate was an opportunity for the leaders of the smaller parties to promote themselves without being overshadowed by Clark and Key. It’s shallow to give out points for a debate like this or announce winners but the debate did highlight the leaders’ strengths and weaknesses.
Anderton did bloody well. He pointed to where his party stands part from Labour, did an excellent job standing for the Progressives’ well-known and clearly defined principles, and rapped the Right on their constant negativism and ‘New Zealand Sucks’ campaign, while providing a fair amount of humour. On the topic of bottom-lines and who parties could work with, Anderton aid down the gantlet saying voters have the right to know which major party they might be putting into government by voting for a minor party.
Dunne was his dull, say-whatever-the-centre-wants-to-hear self and provided no real vision or reason to vote for United Future. He clearly leans to National but will work with whoever gives him the most power.
Fitzsimmons presented a clear set of principles and an optimistic vision of a future New Zealand. The debate showed that many parties had moved their policies towards the Greens on a number of issues, especially climate change, of course. But once again the Greens’ skill at being right before everyone else was let down by their political skills. Fitzsimmons appeared almost timid, too often she portrayed the Greens as victims – their contributions ignored or underrated by media and other parties alike. And her comment regarding tax-cuts that ‘anyone will take a lollipop’ is not the way to win votes. Fitzsimmons needs to work on her media skills.
Hide answered every question by saying we need tax cuts for the rich. The only interesting thing he said was that, following Key’s rejection of the possibility of having ACT’s Roger Douglas in a National-led Cabinet, a number of National figures had approached him saying they do see a place for Douglas in Cabinet under National. That people in National have gone behind Key’s back to make such comments to ACT suggests a deeper level of dissension in the ranks than previously thought.
Sharples appeared under prepared and uncertain at times. He couldn’t give firm answers to a number of questions, saying his party would need to consult with supporters before it could answer basic questions like which of the major parties it would prefer to govern with . Politicians from other parties would be rewarded for this ‘vagueness’ but the emphasis on consultation plays well with Maori.
Peters didn’t show, officially because of a prior arrangement but really because he considers NZF above the minor parties, a mistake that made him seem arrogant and a lost opportunity to appear in a forum in which he surely would have starred.
All in all, the debate was very good. Let’s hope there are plenty more as we head into the election.
it was great to see a discussion lie this outside of the 4 weeks before an election. let’s hope TVNZ7 continues with civic orientation and doesn’t follow TV1 and TV3 into purely audience driven commercial consumer-based programming.
“an opportunity for the leaders of the smaller parties to promote themselves without being overshadowed by Clark and Key”
true of Clark perhaps, but i doubt Key is capable of over-shadowing Anderton or Peters. nevertheless it was a good idea and a good production, hats off to 7.
Absolutely. My beef is that those of us without access to 7 are going to miss out on all this information. Infuriating.
Yeah, it’s a good reason to get set up with freeview. The debate was peppered with ads for the new channel, looks like some good stuff including a political show broadcast from the Backbencher hosted by some young fella I’ve not heard of - with any luck the reporting might be less of the formulatic stuff we often get from the press gallery now.
i guess TVNZ are trying to push people to take up the decoders asap, but it does seem a bit ironic that its first genuine attempt at PBS since the NZBC is being limited in terms of who can get it. you’d at least expect 7 to be available on the TVNZ on demand site.
steve, there’s a piece on 7 and Wallace Chapman’s Backbenchers on RNZ’s mediawatch here:
http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/national/mwatch/mediawatch_for_30_march
Heh, sprout, I was just about to flick you the same link after reading your earlier comment.
Listened to the piece on a bus trip yesterday and for the first time in years I’m hopeful we’ll finally get some decent public service television.
yes, it’s brill that at last there’s TV for grownups in NZ. The cost of a decoder is a one-off, unlike a Sky subscription, so it’s a bargain. i thought Dunne came across as dull but dependable, which presumably appeals to a certain audience, while Hide looked like a shifty second-hand car salesman - where DID he get that suit? Sharples was awful, amateur and unprepared; surely Maori voters deserve better?
captcha: the blacklist !
It was online though! http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/1612045
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/497100/1612045
I can’t actually watch it though. I suspect this is because I’m using Linux and TVNZ uses Microsofts proprietary DRM codecs for its video on demand. So much for a public broadcasting service and a free market.
agreed, it does sound promising. well overdue, but promising.
without some kind of PBS parties are largely at the mercy of how private media conglomerates decide to portray them.
with the exceptions of RNZ and our nacent blogosphere (unfortuantely both of which have minor audiences compared to msm tv), NZers have been fed a pretty consisitent diet of neo-liberal ideology via their msm for way too long. hardly surprising then that weve had such a lurch to the right in the last two decades.
i can only hope that TVNZ7 will begin to address that deficit by maintaining a public service orientation and not just schedule to attract the greatest number of potential noel leemings shoppers.
oh, and i hope it’s not too late for NZers to re-acquire a taste for PBS before National tries again to sell it.
Oh, it’s Wallace Chapman - sorry Wallace, I have heard of you, didn’t recognise the face is all.
The new channel is going to have a tv verison of mediawatch too, should be good.
thanks for the links stephen, draco - glad to have been corrected on that one.
Lazy I know, but how does one go about getting this “freeview” thingammy? (more to the point, how much will “free” sting us?!)
The associated poll was interesting. Most poignant factoid: 43% think Maori are the most privileged sector.
Seems the Orewa One poison remains potent - a fact that won’t be lost on the tory puppeteers should the Maori Party heed its supporters and reject Slippery’s overtures prior to post-election negotiations.
Memo to Pita: when you flirt with the devil, use a strong chastity belt.
ak. you can buy a set at Dick Smith and the like - appearantly you should get one with HDTV capability, its a little more ($400) but more stuff is being broadcast with it. And I guess you need a dish or soemthing - there’s a freeview website freeviewnz.tv
Fitzsimmons had a go at TVNZ and Colamr Brunton over that ‘most privileged ethinc group’ question, calling it purposely divisive,probably her strongest moment. Not a surprising result, the bulk of the population is Paheka and they said Maori are most privileged and themselves the least.
[Sharples] couldn’t give firm answers to a number of questions, saying his party would need to consult with supporters before it could answer basic questions like which of the major parties it would prefer to govern with
That’s their kaupapa, and I don’t see anything wrong with it. In fact, it would be nice if more parties had this attitude.
(a poll taken for the debate showed most Maori Party supporters supported a deal with Labour)
No it didn’t - it showed that most members of the public thought the Maori Party would work best with Labour. There’s a big difference there (I emailed Colmar-Brunton and checked, since I was originally worried about overinterpretation of data based on small sample sizes. But they asked each participant which major party they thought a minor party would best work with).
Watching it again, Guyon Espiner presented this in a highly misleading way, saying in case that “73% of your [Green] voters think…” - which is just plain wrong.
I/S. in the debate, Guyon said the poll was talking about Maori Party and Green voters. My comment was based on that, which is obviously wrong. Thanks for the correction.
And, you will note that I said Sharples might have looked bad compared to a ‘conventional’ politicians but within the context of Maori voters it would have come across better.
I didnt see it. How was Guyon?
misrepresenting the poll sample like that is pretty poor journalism. i misunderstood who the data had come from.
I thought Guyon chaired it well.
Disagree about Anderton. Thought he was his rambling, pompous old self, who didn’t present any clear reason as to why Labour needed him. Sanctimonious to the point of being excruciating.
Dunne was dull. Like Anderton, sanctimonious and full of himself. Doesn’t have a lot of credibility when referring to taking issues to caucus and their voters for consultation when they’re polling 1%.
Hide was on-message and forceful, and successfully niggled the other minor leaders. Was the only minor leader bold enough to spell out bottom lines, and quite cunningly put the highest marginal tax rate on the table.
Fitzsimons was on message and well-prepared. Wasn’t flummoxed at all. Clearly spelt out that the Greens would make it clear before the election who they would support in a coalition.
Sharples prevaricated over coalition preferences, and was inconclusive on that. TVNZ sideswiped him with the poll question on Maori Party coalition intentions: the issue isn’t who the general public believe the Maori Party should support, but who Maori Party voters believe the Maori Party should support. Wasn’t as fluent or dynamic as he could have been, and looked a bit off.
Pierson: “Hide answered every question by saying we need tax cuts for the rich.”
No, actually he said he wanted to get rid of the “Envy tax”, the so-called ‘modest’ 6 percent Helen added to the top tax rate when she first came to power. He also pointed out that this was an entirely unnecessary tax, as evidenced by the enormous surpluses.
Helen’s tax punishes the hardest working people of New Zealand, and now, if anyone tries and give them some relief of this extra penalty they’re roasted by the ‘love and giving’ socialists for advocating “Tax cuts for the rich”? An envy tax is exactly what it is…
Pierson: “The only interesting thing he said was that, following Key’s rejection of the possibility of having ACT’s Roger Douglas in a National-led Cabinet, a number of National figures had approached him saying they do see a place for Douglas in Cabinet under National. That people in National have gone behind Key’s back to make such comments to ACT suggests a deeper level of dissension in the ranks than previously thought.”
Yes, well, this is what happens when you watch a debate with one eye. Guyon asked him if these were National Party insiders, to which Hide responded, “No, they were National Party supporters.” Hardly dissension in the ranks, Steve.
jameson, what on earth makes you think the highest earning are the hardest working?
Because, sprout, they’re the ones who studied the hardest to gain their skills, and toiled the hardest to hone those skills. They’re the ones who choose the more difficult road to success, who opted for the jobs fewer people are prepared to do.
Sure, the council road worker sweats. But anyone can sweat. The guy in the suit in the air conditioned office was sweating it when the other guy was smoking behind the school bike sheds.
Good spotting Jameson, “Envy Tax” was the term eh? The one bigots use because they think progressive taxation is purely to punish the rich, and that everyone else is merely the dirty, unwashed masses with nothing better to do than pine after the lifestyles of their betters?
Cheers for reminding me where Hide is coming from.
Jameson. I’m confused are you being serious or is that parody? Because it sounds like good parody. Especially the bit about sweating - it sounds like a mock version of something an Ayn Rand fan or a similar crack-pot would write.
For anyone intersted, the cost of this “Envy Tax” the bigots whine about would be an extra $2,400 to someone earning $100,000; the margin is therefore 2.4% over and above the next rate.
It rises to $8,400 for someone on $200,000 (4.2%) and $56,400 (5.6%) for someone earning $1,000,000 p.a.
Puts it in perspective somewhat.
Mat, are you saying that progressive taxation DOESN’T punish the rich?
A BSA complaint on day one, I/S?
Pierson, when you’re ready to address the point instead of doing a mock Cullen-chuckle to evade it altogether, I’ll be ready to offer a considered retort.
Jameson - punish is a subjective word. It actually means to impose a penalty on someone for an offence, no I’ll go with “no”.
You miss my point - the use of the term ‘envy tax’. Belongs in the gutter with the scum who think it’s a fair or apt term to use.
Pilott: Jameson - punish is a subjective word. It actually means to impose a penalty on someone for an offence, no I’ll go with “no”.”
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So when Mao delivered the death penalty to the intellectual who hadn’t committed any offence it wasn’t really a punishment after all?
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Pilott: “You miss my point - the use of the term ‘envy tax’. Belongs in the gutter with the scum who think it’s a fair or apt term to use.
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… and where do you think the term ‘rich prick’ belongs?
Jameson. Progressive taxation eases the burden on those who can least afford it by shifting some of the burden to those who can most afford it. Ceteris peribus on spending, you would need a flat tax of something like 25% - dropping taxes for some and lifting them for most. In moving away from the current system you are promoting a massive wealth transfer from the poor to the rich
Jameson - is progressive taxation a Bad Thing? Not according to the experts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_tax
“In most western European countries and the United States, advocates of progressive taxation include the vast majority of economists and social scientists.” Only Wikipedia, but note the references.
Avoiding the point, Steve… you were ridiculing my definition of the ‘hardest working’. Care to elaborate?
Jameson, when you’re ready to discuss the bigoted use of the term ‘envy tax’ let me know.
And no, Jameson, that would be murder, not a punishment. Do you expect me to leap to Mao’s defence or something?
Do you expect me to leap to the defence of the term ‘rich prick’ as well? That’s a fairly limp response.
Do you agree that it is bigoted to use the term ‘envy tax’ or have you got a few other pointless comments you’d like to toss in first?
Jameson. I’ll let you in on a secret. I’ve worked in roles where I’ve been paid in the top 10% of wages in the country, and I’ve worked for minimum wage - both within the last five years. I had to work harder on minimum wage.
why isn’t hard work rewarded with more money? Because its people with no other option work the shittiest jobs - the ones where you work hardest and get least because you are being expolited and you’ve got no other choice.
To envy is to feel peeved and pissed off because someone else has something you don’t have, but wish to have. Cullen’s ‘rich prick’ comment voiced the attitude held by a great number of his constituents towards those who are better off than them.
Envy Tax is exactly what it is.
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Mao: “Punish those whom the public identifies as bad elements.”
For the intellectual that often meant capital punishment — which was not considered murder by a billion or so Chinese. I use this example for two reasons: a) to illustrate that people are punished all the time for things which a majority deems an offence, and b) Mao was a leading advocate for your brand of politics and economics.
But if the word punish is so disagreeable to you, Pilott, would you accept that progressive taxation ‘penalises’ the wealthy?
Pierson: “Jameson… I had to work harder on minimum wage… why isn’t hard work rewarded with more money?”
So you think we should be paid according to the amount of calories we burn?
rOb quotes Wiki: “In most western European countries and the United States, advocates of progressive taxation include the vast majority of economists and social scientists.”
The tyranny of the majority at work again. When are you going to start using principles to defend your position?
“The tyranny of the majority”. Ho ho. Persons holding extreme fringe views just love that phrase. Gives them something to cling to.
And Jameson - I could talk principles ’till your ears bleed, but there’s no need. My “position” doesn’t need defending, because it’s not under attack (unless you count mindless repetition of the phrase “politics of envy” as an attack, which I don’t).
Equivocating Cullen-chuckles don’t wash with me, rOb.
Do you believe, as a principle, it’s right for the majority to dictate their will upon a minority?
I find it amusing that you bring up the tyranny of the majority here. Usually the right are just fine with telling us off about what economists think when it favours them. It seems a bit of a double-standard to pull out the tyranny of the majority on economics
The fact is, Jameson, that research suggests that progressive taxes work so well because poorer people circulate money more, and that this money is likely to be given back to the rich through spending anyway. Thus, by redistributing it back through progressive taxes and high spending on social services and fighting poverty, we essentially create a “money cycle”, rather than just have it all flow upwards all the time.
The “trickle down effect” has yet to manifest itself significantly in any major studies.
Pragmatically speaking, progressive taxes are good. They tax people as a function of their disposable income, rather than as a function of their overall income, which avoids them being over-burdensome on the poor- or regressive. I agree that the principle of equal taxation for all is a good one, but progressive taxation has actually shown to be the closest outcome to that in practice, because of the distorting effect of fixed costs.
I also find it a bit amusing that Rodney suggests that people won’t work harder because taxation is aimed more at the rich. There are very few people who work to get rich. Most work for a goal- a house, a family, etc… Some work because they enjoy their jobs- they provide a meaningful service, they’re in a field they’re passionate about, etc… Only the hugely rich care about money other than for the sake of spending it. Labour may be taking in a lot of taxes, but it is also providing a lot of services, and returning taxes to a lot of people who are probably working for a goal through the Working For Families package. This is a very good fiscal policy, and that is reflected in our economic growth, and the fact that we are avoiding a national recession despite a global one brewing due to waves from America’s mortgage disaster and its implications for investors globally.
Anyway, by far the most interesting part of this debate for me was Jeanette and Pita’s answers to that terrible poll question. Now THAT is politics of envy, ladies and gents- people think MAORI are advantaged. As you can see by all their fancy suits, expensive cars, and upmarket townhouses.
I was glad that Jeanette put the responsibility for that perception clearly where it belongs- with the media.
Do you believe, as a principle, it’s right for the majority to dictate their will upon a minority?
I believe that it is more right than a minority dictating their will upon a majority. Do you agree Jameson?
Steve:
“why isn’t hard work rewarded with more money? Because its people with no other option work the shittiest jobs - the ones where you work hardest and get least because you are being expolited and you’ve got no other choice.”
And that the way it ALWAYS is, right?
You’d give an aspirin a headache, Steve.
Why don’t you just unite the proles and start the revolution tomorrow?
Rob:
“I believe that it is more right than a minority dictating their will upon a majority. Do you agree Jameson?”
Agreed. That is the point in having a democracy.
In which case, I’d like to hear your opinion on just exactly why it is that the Labour lead colation government has refused to hold binding refereda. After all, you seem to be a believer in the majority over the minority - how about we let the public have their say on important matters instead of getting to vote once every so often and then trusting various lobby groups to determine nationwide policy?
If you mention terms of government or any of the mindless prattle Clark comes out with then please don’t bother. I’d like to hear your honest, non-partisan opinion.
Case in point - getting rid of the privvy council, or the lack of promised referenda on MMP.
Agreed. That is the point in having a democracy.
Ahh good, do please explain that to Jameson if he shows up again.
In which case, I’d like to hear your opinion on just exactly why it is that the Labour lead colation government has refused to hold binding refereda.
I don’t know much about it Dean. In general I like the idea of referenda, but they’re expensive and fiddly to run, so it’s not the sort of thing that you want to do too often. Which is why the particular form of democracy that we have is called a “representative democracy”:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy
a term which was invented (or at least popularised) but the American “founding fathers” I think, and as is practiced in most “Western” countries.
As I understand it there are legal circumstances that can force a referenda - a specified number of signatures - and this is what for example the “Family First” types are trying to achieve. We haven’t had any referenda recently so I guess those legal circumstances have not been met on any issue, but do feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.
In a truly civilised society one man may not force his will upon another - other than in the act of self-defence. The doctrine that allows one group to impose their will upon another group, regardless of their respective sizes, is evil — pure and simple.
Nazi German was a democracy. Hitler was elected democratically. A democracy without a constitution protecting the rights of the individual is potentially just as dangerous as country without a vote at all. Without restrictions to power, a democracy is nothing more than a collective mob who may rule that alcohol be banned, that your property be confiscated, that Jews be disenfranchised.
*Nazi Germany
Have you people forgotten that Cullen spent a million bucks of OUR money getting an independent review of our tax system? Their recommendation: a flat tax. Cullen the Commie spewed, “I can’t believe I spent a million dollars to have ACT’s economic policy fed back to me!!”
Even the reds in Russia have figured out that a flat tax is best:
“Russia dramatically reduced its higher rates of personal income tax (PIT) in 2001 establishing a single marginal rate at the low level of 13 percent. In the following year, real revenue from the PIT actually increased by about 26 percent.”
http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:D9QNxr52pWgJ:www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2005/wp0516.pdf flat tax working&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=nz
Rob:
“Ahh good, do please explain that to Jameson if he shows up again.”
Jameson is just a trolling libertarian, and you can’t convince those people of anything. I’m sure neither of us will waste our breath.
“As I understand it there are legal circumstances that can force a referenda - a specified number of signatures - and this is what for example the “Family First” types are trying to achieve. We haven’t had any referenda recently so I guess those legal circumstances have not been met on any issue, but do feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.”
The problem is that the family first type of groups deserve to be heard, too. I disagree with them vehemently, but if you try to shut them down, you end up looking stupid, just like the comments cabinet ministers have made about the EB. We all want to appear tolerant, don’t we? Isn’t that why Labour had an MP that didn’t have a problem with throwing stones at homosexuals, as long as it happened in the correct country?
And what of the absolishment of the privy council? This kind of decision should not have been made without a referendum.
National and Labour have both run roughshod over any kind of informal constitution we may have had in the past, and I’d say both have done so equally. Perhaps it’s the same sort of thing as loudly blaming the benefit cuts of the early 90s, while refusing to reverse them after 8 years in power.
But apparently Labour are more prinicipled than National. Therefore it would seem to make sense for them to consult the public on such matters? Plenty of other western democracies manage it without much ado.
Have you people forgotten that Cullen spent a million bucks of OUR money getting an independent review of our tax system? Their recommendation: a flat tax.
I have forgotten actually. I’d be interested if you could supply references.
Cullen the Commie spewed
No need to be rude Jameson.
Even the reds in Russia have figured out that a flat tax is best
But aren’t the Russians Commies like Cullen? Come on Jameson, get your story straight.
In a truly civilised society one man may not force his will upon another
I quite agree, and when you find a truly civilised society you get right back here and let us know. In the mean time the rest of us will muddle through with imperfect democracy, just doin the best that we can.
Dean: “Jameson is just a trolling libertarian, and you can’t convince those people of anything. I’m sure neither of us will waste our breath.”
Well you’re certainly not wasting your brain cell. Is that the best response you can muster to the criticism of your simplistic view of democracy?
Jameson is just a trolling libertarian, and you can’t convince those people of anything. I’m sure neither of us will waste our breath.
Why Dean! On this one matter I must confess that your wisdom exceeds mine. I just can’t help myself from replying sometimes. I think I need a 12 Step Programme.
The problem is that the family first type of groups deserve to be heard, too. I disagree with them vehemently, but if you try to shut them down, you end up looking stupid
I’m not disagreeing, if they get their signatures of course they should get their referendum.
And what of the absolishment of the privy council? This kind of decision should not have been made without a referendum.
Why not?
But apparently Labour are more prinicipled than National. Therefore it would seem to make sense for them to consult the public on such matters? Plenty of other western democracies manage it without much ado.
Be interested to hear about that. Which countries, on what issues, how often, binding or not, how are they implemented?
rob, the independent research was actually commissioned by Inland Revenue, which recommended we have a flat tax rate of 22 percent to 23 percent of GDP. Cullen spewed and threw it out. It’s public record.
Yes, the Russians are commies like Cullen. When are you lot going to come around to your fellow comrade’s way of thinking and adopt a flat tax?
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Jameson: “In a truly civilised society one man may not force his will upon another…”
rob: “I quite agree…”
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I’m glad you agree with the libertarian principle of non-force, rob, but until you actually demonstrate this in your thinking I’m calling you a liar.
rob, the independent research was actually commissioned by Inland Revenue, which recommended we have a flat tax rate of 22 percent to 23 percent of GDP. Cullen spewed and threw it out. It’s public record.
Well if it’s public record then it shouldn’t be hard to find some readings on it. Come on Jameson, a bit of homework here, let’s see the primary sources.
I’m glad you agree with the libertarian principle of non-force, rob, but until you actually demonstrate this in your thinking I’m calling you a liar.
Go ahead Jameson. My point was that dream worlds of perfect civilisation are free, and sure in a dream world there would be no need for coercion of any kind. In my dream world Jameson I have a flying pony.
Cullen: “One example of extreme non-interventionist thinking was the research commissioned by Inland Revenue that suggested we should have a flat tax rate of 22 percent to 23 percent of GDP.”
http://taxpolicy.ird.govt.nz/news/press/speechifa180200.html
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You can’t to have it both ways, rob: either you agree with the Non-Initiation of Force principle, or you support the unlimited power of the majority. One is the basis for a civilised society, and the other permits Jews being sent to concentration camps.
So, which camp are you in?
Interesting Jameson, let’s have a slightly fuller quote shall we:
One example of extreme non-interventionist thinking was the research commissioned by Inland Revenue that suggested we should have a flat tax rate of 22 percent to 23 percent of GDP. I was pleased to see Inland Revenue thoroughly debunk such nonsense in the briefing papers I was given as incoming Minister of Revenue.
The date of that speech was 18 February 2000.
Now let’s compare with your claims.
Have you people forgotten that Cullen spent a million bucks of OUR money getting an independent review of our tax system?
Wrong. That money (if indeed it was a million dollars, you probably got that wrong to) was spent by the previous National government. It was all done and dusted when Cullen got the briefing papers as part of the incoming government.
This is the second time you have been shown to be wrong in your claims on simple matters of fact Jameson. I am forced to wonder just how much of your world view is buttressed by such self deception.
Cullen the Commie spewed, “I can’t believe I spent a million dollars to have ACT’s economic policy fed back to me!!”
Cullen, who is a Social Democrat (not a Communist) indeed rejected the proposal, as did Inland Revenue who commissioned the the study. As far as I can see no vomiting was involved.
You can’t to have it both ways, rob: either you agree with the Non-Initiation of Force principle, or you support the unlimited power of the majority. One is the basis for a civilised society, and the other permits Jews being sent to concentration camps.
Are you really that big a fool Jameson?
I already corrected my original assertion, rob — keep up: “… the independent research was actually commissioned by Inland Revenue…”
Of course the IRD ‘debunked’ it — the report directly undermined their livelihoods. A radically simple tax regime would have cost thousands of agents their jobs. And of course Cullen was pleased — it undermined his Keynesian, Nanny knows how to spend your money better than you do, regime.
It was a million bucks and Cullen was very shitty about that indeed, but I’m not wasting my time looking for evidence because it’s not that germane.
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Now, answer the question, rob: do you believe in the limited or unlimited power the majority?
power *of* the majority?
By the way, you’re right — calling Cullen a commie is inaccurate… he’s more of a fascist.
I already corrected my original assertion, rob
Ahhh - was that a correction was it? No doubt an apology to Cullen will also be forthcoming - it was those terrible Nats who spent all OUR money.
Hint for future comments Jameson - try and get the facts right.
Now, answer the question, rob: do you believe in the limited or unlimited power the majority?
Limited.
Do you believe in the limited or unlimited freedom of the individual?
But I don’t really see much point in debating Libertarian “philosophy” with you Jameson. You believe in a perfect form of government which does not exist and has never existed. Anything short of that you claim is the moral equivalent of the holocaust. It’s not really possible to have a sensible discussion with someone holding such a world view.
calling Cullen a commie is inaccurate… he’s more of a fascist.
Why stop there Jameson. He’s probably a reincarnation of Genghis Khan, don’t you think?
Jameson, at 5:00 pm: “To envy is to feel peeved and pissed off because someone else has something you don’t have, but wish to have. Cullen’s ‘rich prick’ comment voiced the attitude held by a great number of his constituents towards those who are better off than them.
Envy Tax is exactly what it is.”
Jameson, the reason you are a bigot for believing this is manifestly simple. I’ll explain it to you. Most people hold a political-economic belief system because they think that it will improve people’s lives. Some believe redistribution of wealth is the way to achieve this. Some believe that this, on a very very limited scale, whilst minimising interference in the global economic system, will be better. Some take it even further and think that any interference is plain wrong (yet these people seem to have a few flaws as to the role of minimal government, but let’s not start there just yet).
There’s something in common with all of these views, Jameson, and that is that the holders of all these views genuinely blieve their way is a way to improve the lot of society as a whole. I’ll be charitable and say that Libertarians believe ths, although you could say that Libertarians believe that society’s lot will be improved by independance from authority more than anything else - good for them, there’s nothing fundamentally evil/selfish/spiteful in this - I believe such a view is held with the best intentions..
Some bigots, on the other hand, make assertions, a-la ‘envy tax’ that people hold poliical-economic views, not out of altruism, but out of jealousy, spite and envy. People who hold such views of ohers are, prety much, scum and bigots. You’re not just attacking a belief system (fair game) but the core motivaton behind the people who espouse those views, and push them in a geniune effort to improve society; I find that plainly abhorrent.
Ibid: Mao: “Punish those whom the public identifies as bad elements.”
For the intellectual that often meant capital punishment — which was not considered murder by a billion or so Chinese. I use this example for two reasons: a) to illustrate that people are punished all the time for things which a majority deems an offence, and b) Mao was a leading advocate for your brand of politics and economics.
But if the word punish is so disagreeable to you, Pilott, would you accept that progressive taxation ‘penalises’ the wealthy?”
Grow up, lad, not all Social Democrats are Maoists. You used this example, indvertantly, to illustrate your (presumably, couldn’t take it for much else but feel free to correct this assumption) libertarian black-and-white view of the world which is little more than an interesting intellectual exercise that has absolutely no grounding in reality.
You see, you call it punishment. This, I’m afraid, illustrates that your thinking is little removed from our pre-human ancestors (hopefully you believe in evolution, but I can make another comparison if you don’t get it). You can’t think beyond the next deer you’re going to stalk, and where you’ll sleep tonight. You can’t think beyond individual take-home pay, to what may benefit society as a whole.
If you’re a true Libertarian, you won’t be offended with that, nor will you disagree, as the enitre notion of society or community is probably some Marxist invention - it’s all about number one right? Different strokes, Jameson, but thank God the Social Democratic movement (sorry, I meant Maoist-Trotskyite-Stalinist Cabal) are doing better than the libertarians
(sorry this was so long, all)
Good to see some people losing the plot on here….
I think the main beef with regard to taxation is that the top tax rate in New Zealand kicks in at about 1.4 times the average wage (please correct me if I am wrong) while the OECD average is about 5.6 (ditto).
In a world where highly-skilled labour is a scarce commodity that exhibits relatively elastic supply; NZ needs to ensure that it isn’t missing out on this global talent pool because of that rate.
Unfortunately $70,000NZD isn’t a lot of money anymore. I certainly don’t advocate Nurses; Teachers policeman etc. being in the same top tax-bracket as Gordon Gekko look-alikes handling advertising accounts and looking for the next big deal.
Gordon Gekko look-alikes
God, that takes me back. Gobbler, the problem with your argument is that the “top tax rate” of countries varies considerably. The top tax rate sitting around 80% and kicking in at 5.6 times the average wage (which would be around $300,000)with the 39% rate coming in in higher than it does now (perhaps $100k) and another step in the middle. That situation would fit your parameters but I suspect would not be one you would argue for.
Certainly wouldn’t be pushing for that at all IrishBill!
Perhaps it would be more useful to conduct a mass ‘census’ of would be migrants to New Zealand and of the supposed ‘exodus’ that National is always harping on about to see what considerations they make on choosing a destination to live.
It may be to nauseatingly close to market research for some to stomach (probably because Gordon Gekko would head up the list of consultants!) but it could prove to be much more useful than the status quo of stumbling around in the dark in terms of building a knowledge base that will undoubtedly have a large proportion made up by overseas migrants.
I still do believe that the highest rate kicks in to low but I’m sure that will be addressed come May….
Okay, rob, we’re getting somewhere. So you believe in limiting the power of the majority. Good.
How do you determine the limits?
……………………………………………
In answer to your question: I believe in unlimited individual freedom AND the Non-Initiation of Force principle.
The difficulty in NZ is that the range of incomes is also a lot less than most countries. We don’t have that many people on really extremely high incomes. Our highest tax bracket kicks in pretty low. But it was set when less then 5% of us were in it for a proportion of our income. It has spread a bit, but probably not that much. Probably still less than 10% and definitely not even in the same order of tax that the government get from the under 33% tax brackets.
I suspect that the boundary between the lowest two brackets is the one that needs the most attention. I can’t remember the last time that moved at all. I must look at what the spread currently is, and the number of taxpayers in each 10k bracket. Haven’t read the data from the 2006 census yet.
The current tax system is a lot better than when my father was paying a top rate of 60 odd percent in NZ. Those kind of numbers really made you expend a lot of effort and money in working out how to finese the tax laws. It is easy to see - just go across the ditch to aussie. One of the major entertainments is playing taxhole theory.
It is an exercise that makes accountants and lawyers rich and the society a lot poorer. Glad we got rid of most of it here.
Mid you if you want to see a really complicated system - try the VAT in the UK, or those interesting state sales taxes in the US. The churn cost of running those systems must be an immense burden on their public economies.
600 words, Pilott — could you be any more verbose?
Let’s see if we can cut to the chase:
1) Who should own the invention: the inventor who toiled to make the discovery or the public who did nothing?
2) Who should own the production of the invention: the investor who risks his money or the workers who risk nothing?
3) Who should own the profits of the invention: the inventor and the investor who created the wealth, or the government who created nothing?
(And by own, I also mean control.)
“We just don’t believe in tax cuts - it’s against our fundamental philosophy - after all we are socialists and proud of it”.
— Dr. Michael Cullen
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Ah, I was wrong again, rob… he’s a Socialist after all.
Just like Adolph.
Getting back to the original comments about “kingmaking”, I was really disappointed in Maori Party rep Pita Sharples. It was clear in the last election and the polling again shows that most of the party vote from the Maori roll votes goes to Labour. In Sharples seat, the party vote went overwhelmingly to labour. But its clear from his recent musings that this group wants to go with National. Is this because Turiana has not got over her rift with Helen? The bit about the abolishing of the Maori seats is simply an attempt to get National to drop that election plank so that the Maori Party can feel righteous about going with National. Never mind that National has no policies that benefit Maori. Talk about self-serving.
National has no policies that benefit Maori really ?
Okay, rob, we’re getting somewhere.
Ahh Jameson, I very much doubt it.
How do you determine the limits?
Not so fast, I want a proper answer to my question first.
In answer to your question: I believe in unlimited individual freedom AND the Non-Initiation of Force principle.
Either you believe in limited individual freedom or you don’t Jameson, you can’t have it both ways. So which is it - individual freedom - one word answer - limited or unlimited?
“We just don’t believe in tax cuts - it’s against our fundamental philosophy - after all we are socialists and proud of it”. — Dr. Michael Cullen
Once again Jameson I’m moved to enquire as to the original source of this “quote”. Note that repeating it from a right wing blog won’t do (unless that blog has the original citation). Let’s have the original source for this “quote” please.
Ah, I was wrong again, rob… he’s a Socialist after all. Just like Adolph.
Trying to reduce opposing points of view to Nazism is juvenile in the extreme Jameson, all it shows is that you have nothing sensible to contribute. Go do penance in front of an image of St Godwin. And if you want to actually learn something about the complicated politics of Nazi Germany, then you could do worse than to start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism
Hitler was elected democratically.
Incidentally Jameson, you are wrong again. That’s three incorrect factual claims on your part. Not looking good.
Jameson,
No response to anything substantiative, but points for effort. oh, wait, you’re recycling some old juvenile hash - no points for you, lad! I’ll take it as a concession that your espousal of progressive taxation as ‘Envy Tax’ is indeed bigoted. Interesting you’re comfortable with that.
But just for kicks:
1, 2 & 3) Research, the end result of which would benefit all society, should be publicly funded. The invention is therefore owned by the public that funded it (via taxation), and everyone can benefit from the advantage given to society by implementation of the invention. The inventor should be suitably rewarded. In this way, society as a whole can benefit, as opposed to a select few. Proceeds from the invention, which would be minimal (as the stakeholders demands would not be to wring profit from users of the invention, but to maximise benefit to society) would credit the inventor, and go towards further funding.
What a bleak and awful world that would be, eh? What would you have happen, Jameson? You see, you don’t even realise that in asking such childish and limited questions, you’re further revealing the classical Libertarian black-and-white view of the world.
I’ll just wait for you to use typical flawed reductivism to distill Social Democracy down to some form of historical evil. Tell you what, I’ll give you a challenge. You’ve already said that anyone slightly left-of-the-right is akin to a Hitler, or Mao. Try and link it with Pol Pot this time for a bit of variety, cheers.
Oh you think you’re so clever, don’t you, rob… Unlimited.
Now, before you get a little boner, let me say that this means unfettered freedom for EVERYONE. In other words, one man’s freedom may not impose on another’s, and to do so would be to automatically forfeit your right to that freedom.
I’d add here that unlimited individual freedom is a corollary of the Non-Initiation of Force Principle. If I were to make a clear statement about my position on personal freedom I would simply say, “I believe in the Non-Initiation of Force Principle.” I wonder how succinct you would be when posed the same question.
Got Cullen’s quote here:
http://thinkexist.com/quotation/that-new-zealand-should-compare-so-well/454337.html
Admittedly not the most reliable source, but relatively moot as far as I’m concerned; his hatred for tax cuts has been wholly evident in every screw-you McScrooge budget for the last eight years. The point I’m making is that fascism, communism and socialism are all variants of totalitarianism, and all issue from the same dark, dank and dirty ink well of Karl Marx.
The common denominator is your love for the redistribution of other people’s wealth (Number 2 in the Manifesto: “A heavy progressive or graduated income tax”.)
If you’d like to make a distinction between a Socialist and Social Dem, go right ahead. But I guarantee you think a portion of my wealth, which is a portion of my time earning that wealth, which means a portion of my life, is yours to own, control and distribute. In other words, rob, you and all the other stinking socialist scumbags on this planet would have me as your part time slave.
And let’s be clear on exactly how part-time, how ‘heavy’ that portion is: 30% income tax, plus 12.5% GST, plus all the levies on petrol, alcohol etc… we’re talking upwards of 50% — half my life!!
And you socialists think this is civilized?
There needs to be a revolution alright, and you lot should be first against the wall.
As a matter of self-defence of course.
MP
As an aside who would decide which research would benefit society prior to the fact.
Nice hypothesis but I it is unrealistic to have conpletely state funded research due to the different priorities that there will always be between the State and private enterprise.
Perhaps a better model for yourself is that employed by the National Cancer Institute in the USA who partners with both industry and institutions.
Jameson in answer to your question regarding an invention
IP law is explicit that the owner of an invention once registered and patented is the owner of the IP and has the right to exploit the invention for a certain period of time.
Unlimited. Now, before you get a little boner, let me say that this means unfettered freedom for EVERYONE. In other words, one man’s freedom may not impose on another’s, and to do so would be to automatically forfeit your right to that freedom.
OK - so it’s unlimited personal freedom except that it’s limited personal freedom (because it “may not impose”) and it can be taken away from you. That’s your position?
Got Cullen’s quote here:
http://thinkexist.com/quotation/that-new-zealand-should-compare-so-well/454337.html
Admittedly not the most reliable source
Certainly isn’t. Probably added from one of the right wing blogs that you are quoting. Mysteriously, there seems to be no authoritative primary source for this “quote”, hence I’m tempted to conclude that it’s another error of fact on your part. That’s four.
There needs to be a revolution alright, and you lot should be first against the wall. As a matter of self-defence of course.
And that is how you apply your sacred “non-initiation of force” principle is it Jameson? What a very, flexible, interpretation of the principle you must have.
Pilott: “Research, the end result of which would benefit all society, should be publicly funded.”
This raises two more questions:
1) In your ‘bright and awesome’ world, would the inventor be allowed to use private funding? And if so,
2) Who would own the invention then?
“OK - so it’s unlimited personal freedom except that it’s limited personal freedom (because it “may not impose”) and it can be taken away from you. That’s your position?”
If I may wade in here. Wouldn’t it be a contradiction to say the following:
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and property.
Without the corollary:
So long as that does not impact on anyone elses rights to life liberty and property?
Without the corollary, so called positive rights are enabled. For example it says I have the right to property. Sweet lets go appropriate some off some other bugger (thereby abrogating his rights to that property).
That is absurd. I suggest you may understand that r0b and you are getting into semantics for no real purpose other than to obfuscate and avoid jamesons valid points.
Reductio absurdum, rob…
I’ve stated my position on personal freedom in four words: “Non-Initiation of Force Principle.”
Now you try it, smart guy.