Open mike 15/03/2019

102 comments on “Open mike 15/03/2019 ”

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1. bwaghorn 1

   15 March 2019 at 7:20 am

   79 people dead in 10 years from police chases.
   It’s time to stop.
   I dont blame the cops they are doing their job . But it isnt worth it.
   • BM 1.1

     15 March 2019 at 9:35 am

     Automatic 1 year in prison for anyone who runs from the police.

     People need to know that if you run you will pay a high price, at the moment with the wet bus ticket criminal system we’ve got, people try their luck because if you’re caught there’s no real punishment.
     • bwaghorn 1.1.1

       15 March 2019 at 9:42 am

       Aagh so double down on stuidity?? Not surprisingly from a right winger.
       They’ll run harder dont ya think.
       • James 1.1.1.1

         15 March 2019 at 9:49 am

         Of course – tell the police to ignore them and remove any consequences for the baddies.

         That will make them pull over.
         • bwaghorn 1.1.1.1.1

           15 March 2019 at 5:07 pm

           Innocent lives to catch a car thief that they will more than likely get at some point down the track .
           Not worth it really .
       • BM 1.1.1.2

         15 March 2019 at 9:49 am

         Nope, as I said, there’s no real punishment if you run, so you’ll try your luck.

         No punishment if you get away vs slap on the hand if you’re caught vs fine/PD for whatever made you run.

         Consequences of actions are what’s been missing from NZ for a very long time.

         A year in prison would make many think twice before they bolted.

         Obviously, a bit complicated for you bwaghorn, maybe you should stick to rooting sheep.
         • solkta 1.1.1.2.1

           15 March 2019 at 9:54 am

           Such decisions need to be made in seconds which does not leave time for thinking twice.
           • BM 1.1.1.2.1.1

             15 March 2019 at 9:59 am

             Just run an advertising campaign along the same lines as what was done for drink driving.
             “You run, you’re inside”.

             Once a few end up in the big house and with an effective advertising campaign, it won’t take before it’s ingrained into peoples heads that it’s not worth it.
             • Barfly …

               15 March 2019 at 10:06 am

               “Nope, as I said, there’s no real punishment if you run, so you’ll try your luck”

               versus

               “79 people dead in 10 years from police chases”

               BM seriously??
             • riffer …

               15 March 2019 at 10:44 am

               A cynical observation could be that the Police should run a campaign more or less saying the truth…

               “You run, we’ll chase you until we catch you or you die.”

               Wouldn’t make any difference but.
             • greywarshark …

               15 March 2019 at 10:50 am

               BM
               You’re wasting your time here. You are sunk in your own propaganda.
               But you have a use. You demonstrate to active thinkers here, the large group of people who live their lives according to a recitation of learned directives which they chant whenever they feel discombobulated. It is a settling process and they can then proceed slowly forward like a giant tortoise surrounded by its shell. They don’t understand much and that is a great comfort to them though they don’t understand that either.
               • left_forward …

                 15 March 2019 at 11:18 am

                 Yes grey, I was thinking exactly the same thing.
               • Bewildered …

                 15 March 2019 at 4:09 pm

                 Oh the irony
             • Hongi Ika …

               15 March 2019 at 12:00 pm

               Like + 100%
         • Hongi Ika 1.1.1.2.2

           15 March 2019 at 12:01 pm

           Like + 1000%
       • Gabby 1.1.1.3

         15 March 2019 at 11:10 am

         The harder they run, the bigger they’ll crash waggers.
     • cleangreen 1.1.2

       15 March 2019 at 5:33 pm

       BM.

       Do you ever do any research before you open your blogs?

       Police chases are not accepted in our ‘progressive regions of the world.

       I have spoken before about my personal experience while working in Canada during the 1969 era when there was a rash of Police chases then.

       There was a massive public rally to stop police chases and the pursuit by police was then abandoned as the young offender was often killed in the pursuit.

       Police and the Government in Canada also were very concerned about the safety of others on the roads were not harmed should they have continued the chases.

       No real negative effects were felt after then chases were abandoned.
   • ianmac 1.2

     15 March 2019 at 10:14 am

     A remark from one of the drivers who ran and survived a chase was, “I’d do it the same again.” Suppose the thrill of the chase is a motivation.
     • bwaghorn 1.2.1

       15 March 2019 at 5:38 pm

       The od muppet killing himself I have no problem with . When said muppet kills the dizzy teens in the car with him or worse a complete innocent then it’s not worth it.
   • Incognito 1.3

     15 March 2019 at 10:15 pm

     Maybe they should look into using drones instead of cars chasing cars.
2. Jenny - How to get there? 2

   15 March 2019 at 7:22 am

   The Principal’s Association has issued a vaguely ominous public statement, (presumably motivated by a genuine concern), saying they cannot guarantee the safety of students who attend the climate protests. And threatening punitive action against students who do attend.

   The Principle’s Association say that their views are echoed by that of the police.

   Principals have told RNZ while the march’s message is commendable, they cannot guarantee students’ safety if they decide to attend…..

   ….The Secondary Principals’ Association is refusing to endorse tomorrow’s climate change marchand says studentsare likely to be marked as truant if they attend the protest.

   How it would be seen if the police or the authorities issued such a statement before any other public protest march?

   Admittedly, protesting is unsafe, going on strike is unsafe. It upsets the social order. It makes those in authority feel uneasy, they often don’t know how to respond to a perceived challenge to their power and authority.

   Somehow, I get the idea that in this case, the Principal’s Association’s concerns are motivated by more than just the safety of the students.

   Revealed by this statement:

   “There are lots of ways of putting pressure on,” he said. “A protest is one, it is global, it has got the newspapers, it is good, but what happens next?

   “Or is that just the fish and chips wrappers for next week?”

   This is a political statement. expressing a cynical subjective conservative viewpoint. ‘Protest is pointless, it doesn’t work’, 

   ‘protest is just fish and chip wrapping.’

   Also, suggesting that there are other ways of putting pressure on, but not suggesting any, is dishonest. What are these ‘other ways’?

   I think that if the Principal’s Association was really genuinely concerned about student safety at these protests, and worried about how they would get there safely, then they would have issued another statement entirely. (Let me paraphrase what this statement would probably look like)

   Because of our concerns about student safety at these protests and their travel arrangements, the Principal’s Association  urge our members to attend in solidarity with our students, to protect and guard them. We also urge schools to contact the organisers and offer to provide busses to make it safer for students who wish to attend these protests to get there.

   We are also urging those parents who can, to take the day off, and also attend as an act of solidarity with their children and as a further guarantee of their safety.

   Climate change is a safety issue. It makes us all unsafe. If the Principal’s Association was really concerned about their student’s current and future safety, then they would be doing their very best to make sure that these protests are as successful and safe as possible.

   Personally I wish these brave young adults all the best, and that their daring and courageous protest in the face of opposition from the authorities goes off without mishap.

   This is a view which is not shared by authoritarians, who are probably wishing for harm to befall them, so that they can say, ‘I told you so’. And, ‘It is best (and safer),to do nothing’.

   https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/384735/no-guarantees-on-safety-for-striking-students-principals
   • Andre 2.1

     15 March 2019 at 7:47 am

     One of mine is going. His mother offered to write whatever note he needed to mollify the school. His response was “Nah, getting marked truant and pissing off the authorities is part of the point.”
     • A 2.1.1

       15 March 2019 at 8:41 am

       I like this kid
     • Anne 2.1.2

       15 March 2019 at 9:25 am

       Sounds like he’s a chip off the old block!
       • Andre 2.1.2.1

         15 March 2019 at 9:29 am

         Nah. His head functions a whole lot better than mine did at that age.
         • Bewildered 2.1.2.1.1

           15 March 2019 at 4:14 pm

           I am sure with that attitude he will be a great success
           • Andre 2.1.2.1.1.1

             15 March 2019 at 4:32 pm

             He’s got fairly good judgement about when to keep a lid on it and when to let it loose.

             In any case, a more precise expression of what he was trying to say would be that taking away the risk of consequences makes it much less significant as a protest.
   • mauī 2.2

     15 March 2019 at 7:52 am

     I suppose it’s what you would expect from a collection of pointless authoritarian figures. “Getting in the way” springs to mind…

     The amount of pointless assemblies that we were put through while missing out on actual learning. Great to see the kids getting some of their own back and learning so much more today.
   • bwaghorn 2.3

     15 March 2019 at 7:59 am

     How does one counter argument put up by muppets like collins and garner that because people aren’t living a completely carbon free life they cant be activists for change . ?
     My view has always been it has to come from the top as little bits from the bottom will achieve nothing .
     • Andre 2.3.1

       15 March 2019 at 8:11 am

       Hand the microphone to AOC.

       “Living in the world as it is isn’t an argument against working towards a better future.

       The Green New Deal is about putting a LOT of people to work in developing new technologies, building new infrastructure, and getting us to 100% renewable energy.”

       https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/03/03/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-mocks-report-green-new-deal-hypocrisy/3049218002/
       • Brewildered 2.3.1.1

         15 March 2019 at 4:17 pm

         The educated response

         AOC is a ‘pompous little twit’ with a ‘silly’ climate plan, says Greenpeace co-founder. … But Patrick Moore, one of the original founders of Greenpeace, called her expensive plan “silly” and repeated his claim that she is a “pompous little twit.” “It’s a silly plan.

         [lprent: Silly is saying this without a link. This is your warning. Read the policy. ]
         • Andre 2.3.1.1.1

           15 March 2019 at 4:30 pm

           Patrick Moore may indeed have been influential in the early days of Greenpeace. But his ideals and Greenpeace’s ideals parted company several decades ago. Not that that necessarily discredits him: these days I don’t think much of Greenpeace either. But it makes his trading on his long-gone ties to Greenpeace pretty dishonest.

           What does seriously discredit him, however, is his vocal climate-change denialism. Along with his other pro-corporate anti-environmental activities.

           https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/patrick-moore-climate-doubter/
   • A 2.4

     15 March 2019 at 8:43 am

     How ridiculous this all is. Climate change is unsafe and involves extinction.
   • Wensleydale 2.5

     15 March 2019 at 8:49 am

     It’s sad. The subtext to all this seems to be “Stupid children. You’re defying authority, accomplishing nothing and should be here at school learning important stuff like… how to throw a ball around a muddy paddock. Having principles or feeling passionately about things likely to affect your futures are both enormous wastes of time, and once we’ve finished raging impotently at your impertinence, we’re going to mark you down as absent. That’ll teach you!”
3. Sanctuary 3

   15 March 2019 at 7:49 am

   The “important” Auckland schools are more concerned with brand perception than setting an example of democratic participation.
   • Incognito 3.1

     15 March 2019 at 7:57 am

     Schools used to be great institutions to teach obedience, complacency, and knowing your place (and rights) in society. Many a class war was fought in schools and the education system. Luckily, we have moved on from that.
     • Dennis Frank 3.1.1

       15 March 2019 at 10:32 am

       I went to Wanganui Tech before it changed it’s name to Wanganui Boys College (1964) but it continued to incorporate military drill as part of the instruction. So much for modernisation! I recall being made a corporal, and having to ensure that my rabble of ten other boys stood in a straight line.

       Having to do marching on a sweltering summer’s day was a pain in the proverbial. Fortunately deviation from short back and sides was forbidden, so the contaminating effect of the Beatles starting to grow their hair on the distant cultural horizon was inconsequential here.
4. Gabby 4

   15 March 2019 at 7:59 am

   They’re covering their arses for when some lawyer parent comes after them for allowing young Nigel to jeopardise his partnership slot by getting filmed by Comrade Jian’s boys engaging in dissident activities.
   • bwaghorn 4.1

     15 March 2019 at 8:01 am

     It could be just pointing out that teachers duty of care only exists if kids are at school.
   • Anne 4.2

     15 March 2019 at 9:40 am

     Tell you what, back in the Cold War days it didn’t take much to be branded a dissident. I joined the Labour Party. That was enough to alert the ‘thought police’ to yet another potentially dangerous subversive on the loose among the populace. 😯
5. patricia bremner 5

   15 March 2019 at 8:06 am

   I think a large number of parents will take their children park and accompany them then return them to school. The protest is at lunch time in Rotorua on the Village Green.

   It surprises me how this is seen as a ‘One off’ This is just the beginning of civil action.
   Next target will be big emitters shakers movers and political groups.

   Watch as these organised youth promise their 18 year franchise to a political group who promise to enact carbon limiting laws, and push for new strategies.

   is the beginning of a political world wide change unlike any other in history.
   It is not only the climate that has changed, it is the perception of wisdom with age.
   We have fed our wants at the expense of their future needs and they have lost trust.

   Those who are throwing ‘wagging’ comments are deliberately playing the age card.
   That won’t wash with such informed youth, and they also understand some might damage their careers through obvious support, so they have approached seniors in the related science fields to speak on the day

   After all we caused this through political choices, so who are we to say yay or nay?
   I hope this is a unifying electrifying moment in Gaia’s history..as we have made her sick, perhaps the concerted actions of the young will improve her health.

   I intend to go to support. I hope others will do the same.
   • Anne 5.1

     15 March 2019 at 9:50 am

     I love it. They are the new generation of the 60s and 70s. I hope they look to that generation of young activists for support and advice because as they grow older they’re going to need it. The establishment types – and they’re everywhere – can be ruthless and venal against those who have been pigeon-holed as ‘trouble makers’ – no matter how undeserved.

     Does anyone know if there is a march planned on Auckland’s North Shore?
   • greywarshark 5.2

     15 March 2019 at 10:40 am

     Patricia B
     True.
     This is long. If just a few read and offer thoughts they would be good to know.

     I have been thinking how we are not able to grasp the extent of our looming problems and seem to get narrower in our thinking, as at the same time our vista has open up with the ‘globalisation’ dumped on our hapless country with the capitualisation to capitalism with few restraints by personally ambitious Labour subversives and Treasury free-market devotees. We have been detached from the going-together mentality by the ‘ashpirationals’. What’s next for us is going to require some deep thought, and it needs to be across disciplines as they say in universities. And at the heart of getting the deep thought going is education, learning, discussion, workshops, conferences, then talking with the wider public and getting human-sized schemes going. Education at all levels, but particularly for today’s young is the most important thing in our land for their lives. Not just any sort of education though – but of facts and ideas and critical thinking and pragmatic idealism. Either aim above the present mark and think of how we can achieve the necessary plus a bit better, or look at the present and note whether policies still serve us well and formulate new ones that demonstrate to the country they offer new and better outcomes for all.

     I think too – taking the thoughts of education an young people further, that our concept of education has to change dramatically. This morning I heard criticism from Bahlie Huck? who I think introduced NCEA and National Standards (have to check on this to get my facts right) about present Labour Coalition initiated models to change education. Part is to take some control from Boards. About time – that way you get replication of the minds of middle-class accountants and university-educated wives, both rather narrow in their thinking outside their particular interests.

     It is obvious that my cohort’s education did not fit us to manage our lives and understand the likely future changes. We have been fed propaganda about how
     things would be, and so deeply ingrained has that been, that we are quite unprepared for this desolate future that has been devised while we were on our Rip Van Winkle paths.

     A different approach has to be taken from about age 9, based on understanding how they can be an agent in the world and have some choice about their own lives. Learning critical thinking, problem solving, how to run effective meetings so all participate and that good ideas and solutions can flow. Learn how to say why, and then find the reasonable answer. How to assess their own capabilities, and others’; their own tendencies and others.

     They need to learn ‘raw’ management of projects ie using paper and pencil and simple methods, working with a group using all their individual abilities, to think out a plan to make something, as the first part of two. The second is to make the thing, using raw skills ie not 3D printing. Teach people to be self-reliant first, then how to use new technology as well but know the basics and not be deferring to machines and technology all the time. Keeping the superiority of capable, imaginative human beings above that of smart machines – discriminating in favour of people; this is important. At present we are saturated in technology worship and it’s an addiction that is bad for the human race; compare it to alcohol, it is so satisfying, takes your mind away from cold reality, gives empty calories so little real food is eaten, and you get a malnourished lesser version of the once vital person.

     Then after five years of secondary education, the student goes into part-time work, doing apprenticeships, intern work, and back to school for part of the week doing some basic, and some specialised subject. Work and education are integrated. The young person finds out their natural abilities, but does a mix of physical work that is unskilled, some semi-skilled, and some requiring more advanced education. A well-rounded education of different tasks. And the result would be people making better political choices based on the needs of the country, plus their own needs and that of their age cohort, but with experience of others needs and wants, and that of the planet. It is necessary to understand that it is our nurturer not our bottomless treasure chest. It is time for us to grow up, as Mother Nature’s cupboard has bare shelves in it.

     Present education loads kids and parents with costs, among these for expensive uniforms, that have a competitive element to them relating to our school being different from yours and better. The children could dress simply in t-shirts with stick on labels denoting school, instead I was told over $100 for embroidered polo shirts for summer for an ordinary school. Basic shorts, skirts, trousers for cold winters, track pants even to bring practicality instead of fashionable ideas attaching social stigma to uniforms (woollen skirts trailing round girls ankles for the ‘good’ schools, or showing lots of leg with skirts and shorts above the knee for both genders.) Such matters make a difference to identity-finding young people. A set of uniforms, colour co-ordination for smartness and effective design for practicality with mix and match in design for choice. Seems a good idea but historical defiance to change.

     Children have been growing up faster, getting false sophistication and sexualisation, at too young an age as a precocious preparation for adulthood. Then they are denied a pathway to work and individual earning in our society. And this is growing with the use of robotisation, efficiencies and AI and what next? So we are keeping kids in a period of long childhood, denying them skills to make decisions and then a pathway to establishing their own lives, also sufficient security for starting life partnerships with a place to live in together. The young are being cheated. The education system has to stop its process of enabling this and help youngsters to learn how to learn what they need to know, and comprehend the routes to finding truth useful to good decision making. They need to gain confidence in their ability to think around their problems, even just how to recognise them, and know where to go for advice on their options. Parents can help, but in this fast-changing world, it is hard for them to know what to do, and they have to cope with change also.
     • patricia bremner 5.2.1

       15 March 2019 at 8:46 pm

       Greywarshark, that is a thought provoking read. I think you are right about pen and paper problem solving, though I see the speed of thought of the visual world also. Reflection is not valued enough now.
       The awful events of today have left me feeling flat and more than sad…thanks for your response, a wee bright spot in a sad day.
6. A 6

   15 March 2019 at 8:47 am

   Stuff is running an article about how you can be a millionaire by age 65 if you save $300 a week.

   No comments section so unfortunately no snarky comments to follow. Disappointing because they would have been the most interesting part of the page.
   • Wensleydale 6.1

     15 March 2019 at 8:53 am

     I’ve always suspected Stuff do a sort of ‘threat assessment’ before deciding on whether or not to allow comments. I’ve also noticed that comments on particularly controversial stories will on occasion mysteriously vanish into the ether.
7. Sabine 7

   15 March 2019 at 9:09 am

   on the extension of article 50

   https://www.facebook.com/Mhairi.Black.SNP/videos/618242285304265/
   • Rosemary McDonald 7.1

     15 March 2019 at 11:18 am

     Isn’t she just what is needed in politics? Pity it seems like she is over it all and inclined to get out.
     • greywarshark 7.1.1

       15 March 2019 at 1:14 pm

       She can sure get her point across. And speak fluently and understandably (even to the non Scots).
       • Rosemary McDonald 7.1.1.1

         15 March 2019 at 1:23 pm

         ” And speak fluently and understandably (even to the non Scots).”

         It’s my father’s tongue. A Glasgow lad he was.
     • Sabine 7.1.2

       18 March 2019 at 1:51 pm

       yes she is. She is very much what is needed.
8. Dennis Frank 8

   15 March 2019 at 9:11 am

   Richard Harman has an update on the climate-change bill on Politik: http://politik.co.nz/en/content/politics/1524/Attack-on-Shaw-unlikely-to-stop-historic-compromise-James-Shaw-Todd-Muller-Zero-Emissions-Bill-Productivity-Commission.htm

   “POLITIK understands there are still some issues to be resolved; the most notable would appear to be the degree of political independence of the Climate Change Commission. It would seem that NZ First and National may be at odds on this.”

   “Though NZ First’s Manifesto seemed to call for an independent Climate Change Commission (which is supported by both Labour and National), it is understood NZ First want Parliament to be the ultimate setter of any climate change targets.”

   “National has a different vision. It sees the Reserve Bank as a model and wants the Climate Change Commission to stand above politics. Privately National MPs will say they want to avoid a situation in the future where the climate change targets could easily get hijacked by a Government dependent on the Greens for survival.”

   An interesting conundrum – I see merit on both sides of this. I trust James will rebound fast and tough it out. His mana as negotiator will depend on how he can finesse such a substantial impasse.

   “Muller remains optimistic that he and Shaw at least, can agree on the final legislation. If they can, it will be an historic achievement to surely rank alongside legislation like the 1993 Electoral Act or the 1988 Reserve Bank Act as an example of Parliament at its best, working on a bipartisan basis on an important piece of legislation.”
9. Andre 9

   15 March 2019 at 9:11 am

   The senate votes 59-41 that there’s no border emergency to justify misappropriating funds to build a wall.

   https://www.vox.com/2019/3/14/18264306/senate-republicans-block-trump-emergency-resolution

   The immediate effect is precisely zero, because Tangerine Twitler will just veto it, and there’s not enough votes in either the House or the Senate for an override. It should be hugely influential when things get to the courts, however. The constitution explicitly says Congress decides how to spend money, the prez doesn’t. And now Congress has very explicitly said no to spending money to build a wall.

   To precisely nobody’s surprise, a number of Repug senators have proven themselves to be all mouth and no spine when it comes to respecting the Constitution and their oaths to protect it. Ted Cruz, Thom Tillis, Ben Sasse are among those notables.
10. esoteric pineapples 10

    15 March 2019 at 9:33 am

    Huey Long is often claimed to be a populist at best and a fascist and corrupt at worst but I find him quite interesting in videos like this.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hphgHi6FD8k
    • alwyn 10.1

      15 March 2019 at 10:48 am

      Why does that clip remind me of the famous Cunliffe speech in South Auckland?
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dz1FLnPgJQw
      Huey was actually quite well spoken when he wasn’t in his full flow of populist rhetoric.
      Pity he was murdered though. Politics in the US might have been very different in 1936 if the Kingfish had still been around.
11. Andre 11

    15 March 2019 at 10:21 am

    Some of many reasons Bernie won’t be prez.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/14/politics/kfile-bernie-nationalization/index.html

    Seriously, if John Kerry could get successfully swiftboated out of thin air, what kind of smears will get conjured up when there’s actual substantial source material to start with?
12. Siobhan 12

    15 March 2019 at 10:40 am

    “More than 220 children abused in Oranga Tamariki care in 2018”

    “An investigation into abuse in state care has found more than 220 already-damaged children were further harmed in 2018.

    Of the reported abuse, 36 children were sexually harmed, 182 physically harmed, 35 neglected and 83 emotionally harmed by caregivers, family members, other children and Oranga Tamariki staff.

    The majority of the abused were placed with families they had remained with, or returned to, after state intervention; families said to be supported by Oranga Tamariki – Ministry for Children. ”

    Now lets see how much press attention this gets, or, for that matter, how much traction it gets on NZ Political Blogs.

    Bashing a politician over the head clearly isn’t ‘the New Zealand Way’…but having 220 CHILDREN bashed while under supervision of the State’…???….????….
    • Rosemary McDonald 12.1

      15 March 2019 at 11:13 am

      Hiya Siobahn.

      Yes….seemingly this latest report about incidents of abuse of children in state care is a no-go for many. I’m wondering why, as if it was released under a different government some sites would be running hot with ‘it’s all the Natz fault’ comments.

      Again….sigh….the headline will have been read and most shied away as we wouldn’t want it to look like The Current Mob are not doing any better than the last.

      Read the article folks…actually all three as the Herald, Stuff and Natrad covered it…
      the numbers are so high because Oranga Tamariki are using a different data gathering method…”The new findings, the first from Oranga Tamariki’s new reporting system on child harm, were described as “distressing” by chief executive Grainne Moss.”

      With that cleared up….I agree… all that palava because James Shaw was attacked and nothing about this headline is just bloody strange. And saddening.

      Stuff, like the Herald last year has done some decent long form articles about this national shame and has strived to go below the surface and seek information and opinion from a variety of people.

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/111266757/more-than-220-children-abused-in-oranga-tamariki-care-in-2018

      To address this…we as a nation are going to have to break down the usual tribal lines (political, socio economic, cultural etc) and put aside some of our usual prejudices.

      The last time I wrote here on TS about my family’s experience providing foster care I was told I was ‘part of the problem of abuse in care’. Such is TS, and it’s commitment to encouraging ‘robust debate’.

      Anyhoo…a million years ago as we sat opposite the selection panel after we applied to be foster parents we were asked what we hoped to contribute. Other than the obvious loving, safe, warm family environment stuff, we said we expected that while we were caring for the children (many, many children) CYFs would be supporting the parent(s) to make the necessary improvements in their lives so they can safely have their children returned.

      Naive. Much?

      IMO. Substance abuse would be the first on the list of contributing factors. Kiwis drink too much. Period. And many folk get seriously nasty when they’re pissed. The day that drinking (and using chemicals to get off ones face in general) is treated as socially unacceptable as smoking tobacco we will see a marked improvement in the lives of, well, all of us.
      • Siobhan 12.1.1

        15 March 2019 at 11:55 am

        greetings Rosemary,
        We too were foster parents for a number of years and I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest even with cross over of these stats and differing methodology, these numbers are way too low.

        Interesting to read your comment “CYFs would be supporting the parent(s) to make the necessary improvements in their lives so they can safely have their children returned.”..that stuff used to drive me nuts..especially when one of our foster kids mothers became a supposed ‘success’ story…while her kid, who was in care their whole life, was left to wander around, a total lost soul, once they turned 17. Like we said to the case worker..”You’ve had 17 years to prepare for this, how can there be literally NO PLAN in place.”.

        And, and I know this is a controversial topic, but I have met people who foster for the money. Which some people find ridiculous, because the allowances are not enough to cover proper care, but for some folk the cost of a child is negligible, it really is a money making venture.

        And the fact is the social workers can’t ‘afford’ to see the bad motives of some FP because there are simply no other options…a roof over the head is better than sleeping under a bridge…that’s about the state of things in ‘Gods Own’.
        • Rosemary McDonald 12.1.1.1

          15 March 2019 at 2:08 pm

          Sadly, I doubt there is a cyfs horror story I either hadn’t experienced first hand, or heard first hand from someone else.

          You see to me…”success” would equate to having got your shit together enough so your child can return to your care…where that child almost invariably desires to be, however happy that child is with the foster parents.

          Don’t they know at cyfs that these kids grow up not understanding why they were not worth the effort?

          And yes. We encountered a few foster parents who somehow managed to do very well financially out of the system. We barely made ends meet…and we’re seriously good budgeters and smell of an oily rag types. Every dollar went to the care of the child/children. Some folk are much more adept at extracting $$$ from the system.

          We had the same expectations of, and most importantly for our foster children as we did for our own. More than once we were told by some ink-still-wet -on -their-degree childless social worker that this was unreasonable.
          • WeTheBleeple 12.1.1.1.1

            15 March 2019 at 2:32 pm

            Shane

            He was 14 and he slept
            Curled up in our dog kennel
            Under an old cooking apple tree
            That had seen

            It was better, he said
            than the last foster care
            and the one before that
            and back through the years

            He had the prettiest longest eyelashes
            This side of the Caribbean
            and he
            Won hearts and minds
            and he
            Broke them again

            The prize, he said, is Doctor’s bags
            Chemists shelves
            And surgery swag
            As he lit out from his captors
            Once more

            He was caught then escaped
            Till too aged for such japes
            Then they took him to Waikeria
            To grow old.
    • greywarshark 12.2

      15 March 2019 at 11:36 am

      I fear that this is a statistic that is all-embracing, which is probably an activity which in turn would be part of the statistic.

      Does it include every sharp word spoken, or any time someone has touched one of the children? Where is the love in society?

      I remember the case of an anally-retentive teacher at a school camp treating a naughty boy as if he was an advanced pervert. He had dropped his trousers and mooned at some girls. She hustled him away, shut him in a hut on his own, and personally drove him back to his home in disgrace. And he would have been labelled for ever no doubt, certainly at his schools.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXAI51SnKaU

      The tight lipped mouths of the middle class improvers with their desire for ‘naice’ behaviour and ‘compliance’ with rules that other middle class women and men have written
      ensure that there will be a cycle of ever-tightening regulations to be broken. The more the stats, the more money they can demand, and the worse the situation appears.
      We know that bad things happen in some families. Having some officious official find you out for something and put a bad mark against you just makes people’s lives hell. Especially with the targets set under neolib welfare which are uncompromising and often inhuman.

      The middle class can neglect their children and give them little love and kind guidance, but look good from the outside. They may send their kids to boarding school at a fairly early age. They find time for their kids in school holidays and the children don’t know what normal family life is like. But appearances matter; they give brownie points. There are a number of UK authors who spent a considerable amount of time at boarding schools; their characters developed or were squeezed into odd shapes as a result. Robert Morley said about his old school, which asked him a number of times to visit, that the only reason to return would be to set it on fire.

      Yet another author who spent a considerable time at a UK orphanage which ruled with a long rein, Leslie Thomas, used to run away occasionally. Then when he was tired and hungry, he would go to the nearest police station and they would give him a jam butty and a cup of tea and take him home. He would receive a lecture and settle back into the institutional life again. He grew into a man with a sensitive nature, a sense of humour, a work ethic and wrote many popular novels.

      Helping kids, and their parents with options that they could choose from so as to finding some satisfaction in their lives and controlling their faulty behaviour would be a change of direction for these ‘welfare’ agencies. Probably now the recipients regard the officials as the enemy and their work just adds to the difficulties that parents face. Celia Lashlie had some ideas and was succeeding in helping people break through their familiar behaviours that cycled into violence and in the documentary made, as she knew she was dying she had tears in her eyes that she couldn’t stay on earth and keep on the good work that had promised so much. She castigated herself for not looking after her health as she advanced her project. What a great person. Anyone who is upset at the
      Oranga Tamiriki statistics, all of which need caring attention, and some are pitifully serious and not getting the full attention needed, could carry on Celia’s work.

      Celia’s Army – Be part of the change.
      (https://celiasarmy.nz/

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpfQXqZZS4E

      (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/105573733/new-film-captures-the-legacy-and-final-days-of-social-justice-campaigner-celia-lashlie

      Lashlie’s cure to end cycle of crime
      28 Aug, 2010 9:29am
      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10669480

      Where is the Love? Was it just a lie?
      (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcHPNUN-U8E
      • gsays 12.2.1

        15 March 2019 at 1:54 pm

        Celia gets 5 stars from me, the courage shown by Ms Lashlie, both in archive footage, her actions in and and out of the prison system and in the interviews leading up to her death is inspirational.

        A true kiwi hero.
      • Rosemary McDonald 12.2.2

        15 March 2019 at 2:27 pm

        I just read the Herald article you linked to GWS….

        “She wants to crack open the apathy of the average person who has no idea what really goes on, and because she believes we are in the mess we’re in because we are training people to disassociate from emotion.

        From prison officers to social workers, people are told to work by the book and to leave their heart, soul and intuition at home, she thinks.

        Sure, the book is grim reading, she says, and of course there are extraordinary people out there doing extraordinary things.

        But she is “over ” the superficial debate and she is “over” CYF acting like bullies.

        She is critical of the Government’s new push for the faster permanent placement of children, which will leave in its wake, for some, a burning anger and resentment and a pathway to prison. ”

        I was wondering why I had not read that before as it is something I would have most definitely remembered. Hmmm… August 2010 my partner hospitalised as he battled leukaemia.

        Thanks for posting that link. Now…must try to buy that book…
        • greywarshark 12.2.2.1

          15 March 2019 at 7:33 pm

          I was thinking about you this morning Rosemary. Hoping you are going well.
13. Gosman 13

    15 March 2019 at 11:06 am

    Don’t want to blow my own trumpet (Oh alright, yes I do :-)) but I did call the Brexit Article 50 extension weeks ago.
    • Wensleydale 13.1

      15 March 2019 at 11:18 am

      Give yourself a pat on the head, Gossie. And a chocolate fish. It’s a genuine tragedy that your talent continues to go unrecognised by the unenlightened peasantry. As an ignorant prole myself, I feel naught but overwhelming shame. We can only aspire to one day scale similar heights of greatness.
      • Sam 13.1.1

        15 March 2019 at 11:30 am

        Gooie can have rat burgers to share with his rodent friends while they say to each other isn’t this better than crashing out of the EU in 2019.

        The rules are by definition 100% certain. However the EU outcome is also 100% certain. See every country in the EU now even Germany. They’re Economically fucked! Don’t fall for the EU propaganda and Remain narrative. Gooies idiocy = Your Demise. Good Luck!
    • left_forward 13.2

      15 March 2019 at 11:35 am

      O mighty Gos, your powers of prediction are f’king amazing! Like Wensley oracle, I prostrate myself before ye.
      [Apologies Wensley if that was not prostration].
    • Andre 13.3

      15 March 2019 at 12:06 pm

      I am not worthy to roll in your spittle.
      • WeTheBleeple 13.3.1

        15 March 2019 at 2:39 pm

        ^^ Hahaha, that’s a good’n.
14. greywarshark 14

    15 March 2019 at 12:34 pm

    Chris Trotter is asking how NZ is getting on with its international relations comparing Helen Clark and Jacinda Ardern.

    It was an insight which propelled Clark towards the “realist” school of international relations pioneered by Hans Morgenthau. At the heart of Morgenthau’s realism was his belief that the relationships between countries should be guided by an assessment of the power each is able to bring to the task of advancing and defending their national interests. Ethical considerations are not irrelevant to this sort of calculation, but neither are they pivotal. In Morgenthau’s opinion: “A good foreign policy minimizes risks and maximizes benefits.”

    Clark’s realism proved highly effective in advancing New Zealand’s national interest. She earned the respect of four-fifths of humanity by declining to join in the USA’s illegal invasion of Iraq in 2003. More impressively, she persuaded the Chinese to put their trust in New Zealand, and thus became the first western leader to negotiate a free trade agreement with the People’s Republic….

    This is a long way from Morgenthau’s realism. Absent from New Zealand’s current foreign policy is the constant and careful calculation of precisely how much diplomatic power is available to us at any given moment for the advancement of our national interest.

    I hadn’t heard about Hans Morgenthau. 1.31
    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jsfh7OOZM9c

    Structural Realism – International Relations 9m+
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXllDh6rD18

    Morgenthau’s life. 4m+
    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWnF7Ro_HI0
    An interesting man.
    Armenians and Turks – still sensitive today.
    Fraud breaker.

    Father of International Realism
    This graphically explains the man and his thoughts. 4m+
    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00jNQB39-0I
    • Cinny 14.1

      15 March 2019 at 12:39 pm

      Grey, OT…

      Thanks for the post about the Living Wood Fair over in Golden Bay the other day, I heard back from the local paper today and the reporter there is going to do a piece on it 🙂

      Will post the link etc when it’s published.
      • greywarshark 14.1.1

        15 March 2019 at 12:53 pm

        Beaut Cinny
        That’s good hive-minding or whatever.
      • Robert Guyton 14.1.2

        15 March 2019 at 1:36 pm

        I’m looking forward to that article also, Cinny. I read all I could about the Living Wood Fair and am inspired to do something along those lines down here in Riverton next year. We have already a good resource with our forest garden venue, yurts and tipi, cob-oven, coppiced hazel and chestnut and lots of other “woodlander” stuff. I’m presently building a “hobbit hole”, shingled-roof in the form of a wizard’s hat, adobe floor and plan to wattle and daub the walls. Activities like those would interest folk who yearn to live in or near living trees, Imo.
      • marty mars 14.1.3

        15 March 2019 at 1:48 pm

        Come over for it – awesome event. And you never know who you’ll meet 😊
    • Gabby 14.2

      15 March 2019 at 1:13 pm

      So Helen bought a ‘first woman’ badge by selling out NZ. Bargain.
15. Andre 15

    15 March 2019 at 12:34 pm

    The Barbecued BLOTUS is now openly threatening violence on political opponents if things don’t go his way.

    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/03/trump-tough-people-military-police-bikers.html?via=homepage_taps_top
    • alwyn 15.1

      15 March 2019 at 12:49 pm

      On the other hand, and much to my surprise, the lower paid people in the USA appear to be doing better with Trump in charge. Incomes are picking up and the higher increases are in the lower income groups.

      This is an extract from a newsletter I get from Roy Morgan each day. The original article was in the AFR which is pay walled so there is no point in providing the link.
      If you do have access you can find it there.

      “Roy Morgan Summary
      Goldman Sachs estimates that growth in wages across the US economy is currently around 3.4 per cent, and 4.4 per cent in sectors with low wages. The investment bank’s research also shows that wages for workers in the bottom 50 per cent of the US wage distribution is rising by around four per cent a year, compared with about two per cent for those in the top half. The higher growth in low-income wages gained pace from mid-2018, in the wake of the Trump administration’s company tax cuts package”

      So we have the lowest group up by 4.4%
      The bottom half up by 4%
      The top half up by 2%
      Overall the average is up by 3.4%
      The increases have picked up since the tax cut in mid-2018.

      Well. Who would have thought it?
      • Andre 15.1.1

        15 March 2019 at 12:56 pm

        So the Tantrump hasn’t yet broken the Obama recovery. How does that relate to the problem that he’s just seriously trashed the democracy norm that threatening violence on political opponents is simply unacceptable?
      • greywarshark 15.1.2

        15 March 2019 at 1:04 pm

        If they have less lower cost imports coming into the country and citizens have turned to buying USA manufactured stuff, and that includes some manufacturing outlets on islands that are included in USA overlordship, maybe that’s why they are better off. Simple economics would then cause a rise in demand for workers and willingness to pay some more. Good for the USA. Do they agree with other countries having the same opportunity within their borders?
16. greywarshark 16

    15 March 2019 at 1:17 pm

    Economics as we’ve got them shoved up our noses and /or other orifices. We have in the backs of our minds TIAA.
17. greywarshark 17

    15 March 2019 at 1:29 pm

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018686503/kate-raworth-a-good-doughnut

    Kate is the author of Doughnut Economics: Seven Ways to Think Like a 21st Century Economist which sketches out a regenerative, circular economic model that, she says “meets the needs of all within the means of the planet”.

    Kate Raworth will be in New Zealand in May, in conversation with Rod Oram speaking about Doughnut Economics at 7pm on Monday May 13th, opening the Auckland Writers Festival.

    This woman is good looking and a great thinker and seems a consummate leader in the making. She might be able to lead us to a different watering hole, and get our leaders to drink there, instead of the usual clustering place where they all get tanked up on their shitty misleading mechanical methods that they are so stoked up with.
    And that leave us floundering, but that is the triumph of the individual over the masses.
18. Andre 18

    15 March 2019 at 1:39 pm

    😆

    I know most people are humour-exhausted about the least-self-aware most-projectionist buffoon ever, but trust me, this one’s still good for a smile …

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-beto-orourke-hand-insult-twitter_n_5c8ad1ebe4b0d7f6b0f13cf0
19. Poission 19

    15 March 2019 at 2:07 pm

    Breaking news shots fired at mosque in chch.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/111313238/evolving-situation-in-christchurch

    Beware the ides of march.
    • Poission 19.1

      15 March 2019 at 2:21 pm

      Shots fired in mosque reports of bodies.

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/111313238/evolving-situation-in-christchurch
20. mosa 20

    15 March 2019 at 2:35 pm

    Can’t pick up my friends son from school as it is all locked down.
    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/384790/shots-fired-at-mosque-in-central-christchurch
21. mpledger 21

    15 March 2019 at 2:57 pm

    Saw this on a blog about the college cheating scandal.

    Admissions Scandal: When Entitlement Buys Acceptance
    …
    Overriding all this is the research showing that wealth and power corrode people’s moral compasses. Many studies show that the privileged act less ethically than the rest of us. They get their way in so many areas of life, they begin to feel that it is their due. Studies show that people driving expensive cars are less likely to stop for pedestrians at crosswalks than people driving less expensive cars. Rich people are less empathetic and compassionate toward people in distress. They are less adept at recognizing others’ emotions. If told that they may help themselves to candy in a bowl, but whatever is left over will be given to children, the wealthy will take more than others. They are more likely to endorse greed as good, to cheat in order to win a contest, and to negotiate unethically. People who are powerful are more likely to make moral decisions based on rights and self-interest rather than broader concepts like duties and obligations, caring and purity. Some studies show that children of wealthy people tend to be like their parents; whether they are in kindergarten or college, they tend to be more selfish than their peers.
    https://ethicsunwrapped.utexas.edu/admissions-scandal-when-entitlement-buys-acceptance
22. Stunned Mullet 22

    15 March 2019 at 3:02 pm

    Did you take special lessons in how to come across as a complete cunt or does it come naturally ?

    [lprent: Don’t be a completely ridiculous fuckwit.

    There are quite a lot of activists that I know who have been under surveillance, arrested, infiltrated by police for no particularly obvious reason bearing in mind that most of their activities were legal and the others were arguably in the public interest. In particular my niece.

    As far as anyone could tell, the real organised nutters seldom get that type of attention. If you have any evidence to the contrary then bring it up. Otherwise this looks to me to be simple diversion. Sending to OpenMike ]

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
    
    • Stuart Munro. 22.1

      15 March 2019 at 3:04 pm

      Decades of surveillance of harmless folk like Keith Locke make people cynical.
      • Stunned Mullet 22.1.1

        15 March 2019 at 3:10 pm

        I am sickened by those who carry out such attacks. I am also sickened by those who take the opportunity for a smart assed quip.

        Make no mistake. This is a black day for this country.
        • Jilly Bee 22.1.1.1

          15 March 2019 at 3:17 pm

          Talking about smart assed quips – have you had a look at Kiwiblog Stunned Mullet, I was almost tempted to log on so I could comment, but thought the better of it. I thought Sanctuary’s comment was rather pertinent.
          • Stunned Mullet 22.1.1.1.1

            15 March 2019 at 3:20 pm

            Yes I saw this at Kiwiblog…

            ‘David Farrar
            This is a time for kindness and humanity. Few people in NZ will not be shaken by this. Let’s support each other and remember that our common humanity is far stronger than our differences.

            If we want to make a difference today, do it with kindness.’

            and this

            ‘Simon
            Fucking terrible. Looks like the worst day in NZ since Aramoana. Maybe worse.

            Hopefully the Police here in Auckland patrol the Mosques in solidarity.’
            • Sam 22.1.1.1.1.1

              15 March 2019 at 3:23 pm

              The concerns of other online message boards do not concern us.
            • In Vino 22.1.1.1.1.2

              15 March 2019 at 3:24 pm

              I am inclined to agree with Jilly Bee. Who is a troll like Stunned Mullet to assume a bullying attitude and think he should set the tone? I found Sanctuary’s remark quite pertinent, and disagree with SM.
            • greywarshark 22.1.1.1.1.3

              15 March 2019 at 6:56 pm

              If you were truly sensitive Stunned Mullet you wouldn’t use the c word.
        • Stuart Munro. 22.1.1.2

          15 March 2019 at 3:22 pm

          I thought Sanctuary was pretty much on the mark.

          This appears to be a coordinated attack, so the random nut defense doesn’t quite work this time.
23. Roflcopter 23

    15 March 2019 at 3:08 pm

    It took 4 posts … must be a new record.

    [lprent: Banned for 2 weeks for stupid flamewar diversion. That was a completely legitimate comment. ]

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
    
24. Muttonbird 24

    15 March 2019 at 5:55 pm

    I wonder if Jordan Williams of the Tax Dodger’s Union is going to blame the left for this like he did after the attack on James Shaw.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
    
    • BM 24.1

      15 March 2019 at 5:58 pm

      Stop being such a fucking clown.
      • Muttonbird 24.1.1

        15 March 2019 at 6:01 pm

        Jordan first.
25. greywarshark 25

    15 March 2019 at 6:51 pm

    Woman in hospital recovering from surgery who had protection order out against man, raped as she prepared to have a shower. Apparently women have to decide early whether to have anything to do with a certain man because once you are in his sights you can never be free again. And you have to prove you don’t want to have sex even when you are in a hospital bathroom. Then the law happily keeps letting the bugger out of prison to continue the harassment and attacks. It’s a life sentence for some victims.

    Crown prosecutor Mike Brownlie said the defendant had a history of assaulting females.
    ‘‘[His criminal history] indicates a consistently violent approach towards women.’’

    Counsel Sonia Vidal said his previous convictions should not be considered and there was ‘‘no additional violence associated to the intercourse’’.

    Judge Callaghan said there could be no ambiguity over the issue of consent.
    ‘‘She said very clearly ‘no’ for him during all intercourse.’’
    The judge sentenced him to eight years and one month and issued him with a warning under the three-strikes legislation.
    https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/southland/man-jailed-raping-woman-hospital

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